Hi,
I haven't posted here for a few months as life has been quite hectic but now that things are slowing down a bit I thought I would drop by and leave another note.
The relationship I am involved in (and have discussed here before) is still progressing and the bonds between us are strengthening every day. We decided some time ago to 'come out' with regard to our lifestyle and after telling our friends and important family members about the situation we wrote a book about what happened to us.
As I have said before, our situation is quite unusual and our experiences may not apply to other poly people, even so some of what we have gone through may give others some helpful insights and so we have made the book available on the net free to anyone who is interested. You can find a copy on our website on the following page:
http://www.wanowandthen.com/books.html
There are a number of free E-books on this page but the one I am writing about here is called 'Buy one get one free'.
I hope the book may be of some interest (and perhaps of some assistance) to others in poly relationships.
Regards,
Marc
I am referring back to MrShadow's last post here and wondering about the use of the term sexual love.
I have long held to the point of view that although sex is an integral part of any loving relationship, sex itself is a physical side to what is an emotional response.
Many people (men especially) are quite at ease with having casual sex with partners they have no real feeling for. I don't see how this kind of interaction can be referred to as love. A more appropriate term would seem to be lust.
Perhaps I am simply too conservative in nature but I just don't understand sex without deep emotional love. Even when I entered into my current triad relationship I had to get used to the idea of being physically intimate with someone who was not my wife. It took quite a while before I could do so, even though there was already a strong emotional bond between us.
The term soul mates is bandied around a lot but I honestly believe I have found soul mates in both the women I love. They were initially the same life force as they come from just one sperm and one egg that split in two after a week or so. Perhaps that explains why things worked out the way they did for us but one thing I have found out is that nothing in the world compares to the experience of love that comes from the soul. Everything in life is so much better when you find this kind of relationship. The fact that I was lucky enough to find and marry one woman who I could share this with is amazing enough but now finding a second partner who I share the same bond with is almost like living in a fairy tale.
What does it mean to be 'Poly'? and other stuff.
I think there needs to be a clear definition of what it means to be polyamorus or to come up with specific terms for varying types of poly relationships. Of course the word itself means 'many loves' but it is too vague and broad in scope. As Mr Shadow so correctly pointed out there are many types of love and many people you can love at the same time, wife, girlfriend, mother, father, brother sister etc.
While I have no objection to any form of relationship among consenting adults as long as there is no harm done to anyone, I find myself reluctant to be placed in the same category as those who choose the swinging lifestyle.
I guess my own circumstances are, if not unique, at least highly unusual. I had been a faithful monogamous husband for 27 years when I was confronted with a brand new partner (my wife's identical twin) who I fell in love with and who needed rescuing from a horrible marriage. We all ended up deciding that the only real option available was to live together as a threesome but with clearly defined guidelines on how to conduct our lives.
Obviously as the girls are twins we have had to find a way to deal with sexual issues so that no one feels awkward or uncomfortable. In the beginning we did try varying methods (including 3 in a bed) but found this wasn't the way we wanted to continue. The way it has worked out has become like two 'man and wife' partnerships under one roof but with the obvious difference that there is only one man.
We don't feel comfortable being lumped into the same category as those who chose the swinging lifestyle as our relationship, albeit a triad, is faithfull and committed. Swinging may be fine for those who wish to take on that lifestyle but it is one of the more extreme 'poly' lifestyles and it is regarded by mainstream society as very radical.
Personally I wonder why some people feel the need for a lifestyle that, at least on the surface, seems to be more about physical interaction than emotional bonding. To me casual sex is quite unthinkable as I feel physical pleasure without long term emotional bonding is rather hollow.
My perception of swinging relationships is that there is little or no long term commitment and without long term commitment, society at large cannot be expected to take these relationships seriously. In a long term loving and commited poly relationship you tend to put your partners needs before yours and a great depth of maturity is required from everyone involved. Although the sexual side of any adult relationship is important, it is the emotional bond that holds people together for life.
They way we look on 'poly' relationships is that the partners are committed to each other for the long haul. I think swingers lack that long term view and people come and go all the time. Although I have no problem with swingers wanting to be involved in the poly world I would still like to see a clear definition between that lifestyle and serious lifetime commitment. If these kinds of definitions are not made then main stream society will never take committed multiple relationships seriously.
Ok, I expect I am going to cop it for saying that but everyone has their own opinions and those are mine.
On to other things:
As my second partner and I have now passed the first anniversary of living as husband and wife we are regarded by Australian law being in a de-facto marriage. The fact that my first partner is still married to me and still living with me tends to complicate things as the law doesn't take account of that possibility. I did find the following legal advice on de-facto relationships:
"What is a de facto relationship?
Under section 13A of the Interpretation Act (1984), a de facto relationship is defined as “a relationship (other than a legal marriage) between 2 persons who live together in a marriage-like relationship”.
In deciding what constitute a “marriage-like relationship”, the Court may look at the following factors:-
the length of the relationship between the parties;
whether the parties have lived in the same residence;
the nature and extent of common residence;
whether there is, or has been, a sexual relationship between them;
the degree of financial dependence or interdependence, and any arrangements for financial support, between them;
the ownership, use and acquisition of their property (including property they own individually);
the degree of mutual commitment by them to a shared life;
whether they care for and support children; and
the reputation and public aspects, of the relationship between them (ie. how their relationship is perceived by others, do their friends and family see them as being a couple?).
It does not matter whether it is a heterosexual or homosexual relationship, or whether either of the partners is legally married to someone else or in another de facto relationship."
Quoted from a document by Butlers Barristers & Solicitors. (www.butlers.com.au)
This clearly states that it does not matter if either partner in a defacto relationship is still legally married to someone else. Of course the law does not expect partners in the defacto relationship to still be living with their legal partner but I suspect that if this is ever tested the law will have to hold that both the legal marriage and the defacto marriage are valid.
Defacto as defined by one dictonary means: 'Existing in fact whether with lawful authority or not.'
Ok, based on the fact that the law now regards both my relationships as valid how do things stack up agains tthe usual criticisms of a poly relationship.
Are we unfaithful? A dictionary definition of unfaithful states 'Having sexual relations with someone other than your husband or wife, or your boyfriend or girlfriend.' well in law both the girls are now legally in a husband and wife relationship with me so I am not being unfaithful.
Am I cheating? Well as we are all fully aware of the relationship and what goes on none of us can be regarded as cheating. As my second partner had already separated from her husband before any intimacy occurred then that definition does not apply to her either. Cheating is actually someting done by many monogamous couples. As defined by a dictionary to cheat means 'Deprive somebody of something by deceit.' well there is certainly no deceit involved in our relationship.
Is this a polygamous relationship? The dictionary definition actually states 'Someone who is married to two or more people at the same time' so on the surface my relationship looks similar to polygany but in law it means legally married to two people at the same time. Because a defacto relationship is also legal things get a bit hazy here but the law as written has not actually been broken. (It is a stupid law in any case.)
Ok then, are we in an adulterous relationship? Again we look to the dictionary that states: 'Extramarital sex that wilfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations.' Since the relationships are both regarded as being in a married state and since there is no interference caused to either relationship this again cannot apply.
None of the common criticizms levelled at poly relationships actually hollds up when tested. Why is it that so many people are disturbed by the thought of a three way relationship?
From what I can see most of the criticizm stems either from religious beliefs, jealousy of just plain ignorance. People can marry many times over, partners can come and go through a lifetime and it is fine for this to happen as long as it happens in sequence and not in parallel.
So many so called monogamous marriages invole cheating and deceit. Huge numbers of marriages fail for this reason alone. Why is it so unthinkable that three people should have an adult loving and comitted relationship at the same time?
Do people in the mainstream think that it is all about sex? Do they imagine wild orgies and depraved sexual behaviour? Well (at least in our case) nothing could be further from the truth.
We spend most of our lives just getting on with daily living. We spend no more time engaged in sexual activity than most mono couples. Admittedly there is a little more of a competitive nature to sex in a three way relationship but that only serves to maintain more interest. Sex is not the 'be all and end all' of any relationship. It is an important but minor thing in the overall picture. To be honest if I was given the choice of having a deeply loving relationship with nothing more than cuddles and kissses and no sex at all or a relationship with all sex and no love then I would most certainly opt for the former. I can easily live without sex but I could not exist without love.
Although I have only been in a polyamorous relationship for one year I have started to formulate some definite ideas on what it means to have a three way committed relationship and how to make things work so that all partners in the relationship are happy.
From what I have read so far on poly sites on the web there are a lot of people using the word to describe swinging style relationships where partners move in and out on a continual basis. In order to be taken as a serious alternative to a monogamous lifestyle I think truly polyamorous people need to clearly differentiate between a long term committed relationship and short term sexual adventures.
Until the poly relationship I am now involved in, I was completely faithful to my wife for the 30 years that we have been together. I know that if we had not met her sister and if the unique set of circumstances that we found had not been present then I would have continued to be a happy faithful monogamous husband until the day I died.
I think perhaps that being in a poly relationship with identical twins is quite different to trying the same thing with two entirely different individuals. As both twins are very alike in character I really don't have any major headaches trying to develop a new series of communication skills and because I have had 30 years with one twin, understanding the other is much easier for me than it might have been with someone with a very different personality.
Even so, we have the same time sharing and jealousy issues to deal with that any poly relationship has to cope with. Jealousy seems to be part of our nature as human beings so it can't be ignored as a major issue in relationships.
As the 'meat in the sandwich' as it were, I don't have jealousy issues to deal with but my wife has had to work through these feelings and we have talked the issue over a great deal. The relationship has not been without its hiccups, not least of all due to sibling rivalry that exists between sisters.
The whole experience has been amazing. It was not something we ever expected to happen in our lives but it has and day by day we are finding better ways to deal with any problems that arise.
Time sharing is not just an issue of who sleeps with whom and how often. We have found that at present the best option is for me to spend one night with each twin in a continual rotation. This has worked well as neither are left alone any longer than one night.
The thing that is more complicated for us than for other poly people has been the fact that the girls (I use that term advisedly as we are all 50ish) is that there are three separate and clearly defined relationships here.
We each love and respect each other and it is the emotional love between us that is paramount. Yes we are all adults and we have adult physical relationships but that is not the dominant factor in this relationship.
I think in mainstream society there is a view that any kind of multiple partner relationship is all about sex and to some extent this is exacerbated by people who are into the swinging lifestyle trying to claim that they are polyamorous.
I am unfortunate in one respect and that is that I live in a society that does not tolerate multiple marriages. I have no idea why our society has deemed it fit to make marrying more than one person illegal but I suspect it was all originally driven by religion. If I had the option I would most certainly be legally married to both girls as they are both, in every respect except on paper, my wives.
As with every relationship, we have found that open and honest communication is the key to making everything work. There have been times when I have paid more attention to my new partner than to my original partner and this has led to feelings of jealousy and neglect. Thankfully this has been quickly rectified because we can talk openly about our feelings and we are each willing to make the required changes to ensure our relationship stays on track.
I do think that most poly relationships tend to be initiated by men rather than women and as men do tend to attract 'bad press' (deserved or not) when it comes to fidelity, that becomes yet another target for mainstream monogamous people to focus on.
Whatever the reason people enter into multi partner relationships, if the relationship is intended to be long term and faithful or at least committed, then even more effort than normal is required to keep the relationship going. I saw an interview done by Andrew Denton taking with Jack Thompson who once had probably one of the most well publicised poly relationships and Jack basically said that a three way deal involves double the pleasure but also double the pain.
Being the age we are now, the one thing we do tend to think about rather a lot is our own mortality and the effect the death of any one of us will have on the others. This is rather a large burden as we are so emotionally close that the loss of any one of us will be a huge blow to the two who remain.
There are many issues involved in these relationships and my advice to anyone thinking seriously about entering into the poly lifestyle is think long and VERY hard about what is best for you and your partner.
These are some practical examples from our own experience to think about.
The new partner in a poly relationship is likely to be more of the focus of attention due to the newness of the relationship. This is normal but it has to be recognised and managed as the original partner will feel left out.
If the existing relationship is a marriage (as mine is) then the incoming partner will wonder what exactly their place in the relationship is as they have no legal standing.
Your sex life is liable to alter dramatically and at least initially physical demands will be much higher.
For as long as you remain together, the 'hinge' in the relationship (in my case me) will have to sometimes moderate some disputes without favour.
You will lose some friends if you are honest about your lifestyle and you may well be discriminated against in society.
The authorities will try to ignore your relationship as much as possible except when they can cause you problems.
If you are not a good communicator, if all you want is more sex, if you are unhappy with your existing relationship, if you are inclined to be selfish and if your partner is not happy with the idea of a poly relationship then my advice is to stay clear of it
In our case we really had no choice, the circumstances in all our lives were such that in order to move on we had to be together. As I was already very much in love with my wife and as I fell in love with her sister and as the sisters had bonded so strongly after being apart for so long, our choice to live like this made sense.
To begin with I questioned both my feelings and my motives but I never doubted that what I did was right for all of us. I was the driving force behind starting the relationship and I take full responsibility for maintaining it and ensuring both girls feel loved and appreciated.
Both have their own issues to contend with and time is proving that not only is the relationship working, it is deepenig and strenghtening over time. The one promise I made to both girls before we got too involved was that no matter what, if we did go into this lifestyle I would be loyal to both of them for the rest of my days and I would never leave one for the other.
Hi, this is the first time I have thought about writing publically about the relationship that has developed in my life over the past 14 months. Prior to this I had been happily married for over 27 years and had never even considered a second relationship of any kind.
My wife and I have, for very many years, been looking for her missing identical twin who we finally located in late 2008. It was apparent after only a few days that my wife's sis was in a very bad relationship - even though it had lasted well over 20 years. Initially we did all we could to see if we could help salvage that marriage but sadly it proved to be beyond repair.
As my wife's twin was living in another country we decided that it would be better if she could immigrate to Australia (something we are still in the process of working on) but it was only a matter of a few weeks before I realised I was having (what I regarded at the time) as inappropriate feelings for what was effectively my sister in law. I talked this over with my wife, trying to understand why, after so many years of a very happy marriage I was having these feelings.
Much to my surprise my wife did not object at all, in fact she encouraged me to share my feelings with her sister. At the time I was very confused about all this. There were all sorts of concerns, not least of which was the fact that I would be breaking up someone else's marriage if my feelings were reciprocated.
We spent 2 months overseas and during that time I did eventually broach the subject and let my feelings out. When it came time to leave it was heartbreaking for all three of us. Even though by that time there had been no physical contact at all, we had all bonded emotionally and parting was one of the most traumatic events in all our lives.
We stayed in touch as much as possible over the next two months and the relationship deepened as we shared more information about ourselves.
Bear in mind this relationship I was developing was being paralleled by the new relationship my wife was developing with her sister after almost 50 years apart.
After 2 months my wife's sis joined us for what we expected was going to just be a 3 week holiday in Aus. When the time apporached for her to go home she could not go. It simply would have been too devastating for all of us to be separated once again.
She resigned from her job and we started the process of applying to have her stay permanently with us over here.
I guess, looking back, I did wonder how I would react to my wife's twin once we met for the first time. I never expected anything like what happened adn the chances of such a thing occuring must be very slim indeed.
We have all been through tough times in our lives and we still have a lot to work out before we can get back to anything like a normal existance but we have decided that we will stay together for the rest of our lives and the bond between us strengthens with each passing day.
I still have some concerns about the morality of what I did as my actions effected the lives of other people but when I found out just how similar the two girls are and then found that my wife's sis was in such a terrible state, I simply could not leave her to her fate.
One year on from the start of our poly relationship we could not be happier. The love that exists between all of us continues to deepen and grow and we feel that the missing piece in all our lives is finally in place.
This is such an unusual story and some of the details sound like something out of a fiction novel but we have come to believe that events were influenced by powers that we do not really comprehend. Events that happened many years ago all came together just at the right time enabling us to end up where we are today.
I hesitate to say that it was planned out by God but it does feel like something beyond our personal actions was behind all this.
